Interview With a Bibliophile

Andrew Seeley

It’s Monday, and time once again for “Interview With a Bibliophile” in which I invite some lovely bibliophiles I know to answer some questions about tastes, reading habits, and preferences. This is to pique some interest among friends and family about new book finds, to perhaps stir up some thought provoking ideas, and to simply share our mutual love of the printed word. If you love books, I hope you will join us and take a look.

Today I am talking with my friend Andrew Seeley. Andrew is the new Director of Advanced Formation of Educators and a professor of philosophy at the Augustine Institute. He founded the Institute for Catholic Liberal Education in 2005, where he served as Executive Director for 12 years. He became Executive Director of the Arts of Liberty Project in 2021, and recently co-founded the Boethius Institute for the Advancement of Liberal Education with Dr. Jeffrey Lehman.

Andrew grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio. His father was an Episcopalian priest who raised his kids Catholic before becoming a lay Catholic himself. He eventually was ordained a Catholic priest in 1999, and served at St. John Cantius in the Archdiocese of Chicago, Illinois for the last seven years of his life. Andrew’s mother taught her three sons to ride motorcycles when they were coming of age. He loved the independence, at the age of 15, in being able to drive himself to school and around town. He loved and remembers fondly the longer motorcycle trips the family took, especially to West Virginia for white water rafting. He confesses to having been a sports-a-holic as a kid, and got to enjoy the glory days of the Big Red Machine in Cincinnati. Andrew’s grandparents owned a family farm in southwest Michigan and he considers it one of the great blessings of his youth, where he learned about nature, animals, beauty, work, boredom, and silence. He met his wife Lisa while working at a Catholic family apostolate in Wisconsin, and they dated long distance for three years while he finished college. Over 300 letters were sent back and forth between them! This did the trick because later they were married and have been blessed with six children and nine grand-children.

For me, Andrew’s reputation preceded him. My sons spoke highly of him when they knew him as a tutor back in their college years at Thomas Aquinas College. I finally met him face to face in the best possible way: under a starlit sky with pipe smoke in the air, surrounded by enthusiastic young actors and playwrights each taking their turn, he among them, at reading Eliot’s Four Quartets aloud as they puffed away happily, sipped their Bourbon and I my white wine. To date, I count it one of my favorite evenings, and it was an excellent way to be introduced to this Tolkien aficianado, this born teacher, this helpful, kind friend to many, young and old. I welcome him most heartily to this interview.

Being a notorious Tolkien fan, what is it about his works that moves you so much? How did Tolkien's particular style of writing capture your attention the first time you read the Rings Trilogy? Who is your favorite character? What is the perfect age you would suggest to first get the most out of the Trilogy? Are there any other works of Tolkien that you especially enjoy?

These are such hard questions to answer because I have lived in Tolkien's works and they have lived in me for almost a half century. They have been for me what the Iliad and the Odyssey were for the Greeks, a treasury of moral ideals and cultural wisdom that profoundly shaped my own thought and character.

The moral and spiritual beauty shining out in heroic action consciously chosen, always at risk, providentially and eucatastropically triumphant, has always moved me, though of course I could never have articulated that when I was younger. I responded to it with my whole being, or what I had left from a broken-home, latchkey, childhood immersion in the hopeless moral depravity common in the '70s. As an adult, I have been as moved by the deep spiritual insight the stories offer into the good, the bad, and the ugly.

I first read The Hobbit at 11 or 12 years old. I was immediately taken by Tolkien’s comical/satirical style, which revealed absurdities without inviting contempt. I suppose along with that went an immediate attraction to and affection for the sharp-tongued wizard, Gandalf. And yet all of that was just a prelude to the promised adventure which transformed an absurd hobbit into a tolerable hero, without any loss of common hobbit sense. Couple that with Tolkien's amazing ability to conceive of and communicate exciting, heroic episodes, in a language that became more elevated as the story became more heroic.

The Fellowship of the Ring was much harder to enter. The style changes immediately after the opening chapter, becoming much more of an adult travelog. (We learn later that the primary author had switched from Bilbo to Frodo, which I think fits the writing style.) I actually stopped reading, and had to take it up again a year or so later. But then I was gripped. I remember being angry when I discovered, upon completing The Fellowship, that it was not a trilogy at all! Reading Shelob’s Lair in the middle of the night remains in my memory the most exciting reading I've ever done.

Sam and, to some extent, Gandalf were my favorite characters in my younger days, as is appropriate. Sam's humble loyalty, common sense, sardonic humor, and simple dreams are easy for us democrats to identify with, as we do with the lessons of It's a Wonderful Life. But as I've gotten older, I've gravitated more towards the spiritual greatness of Frodo, and even more towards the penetrating, pity-full wisdom of Gandalf.

Like the great ancient cultural epics, it's best to experience LotR in adolescence, when you are most open to dreaming heroically and shaping your life accordingly. I would love to see it become the central work of literature taught in high school. Digital upbringing has deadened the spirit, the thumos, in most of our youth; educating them into a work like this can resurrect it. But those who can get the most out of The Lord of the Rings are those who have tried to live their lives heroically. I weep much more in reading it now as an old man than I ever did when I was young.

Serious Tolkien readers should, of course, also read The Silmarillion, which Tolkien considered to be of a piece with The Lord of the Rings. It is not enjoyable in the same way. It is exclusively heroic in tone, without any of the Everyman lightness that the hobbits bring, and it follows an Old Testament tragic trajectory. It is a work of cosmic themes and yet is very moving. The story of Turin Turambar is one of the most devastating I know. I also strongly recommend, for very different reasons, Tolkien's short stories, Leaf, By Niggle and Smith of Wooten Major, his insightful essay On Fairy Stories, and especially his letters.

Does your love for Tolkien's Rings extend to other epic fantasy writers or novels? If so, which ones and why?

I don't particularly love the genre of epic fantasy. I often find some elements of greatness in them, but am usually disappointed in the depth of their insight. Harry Potter comes to mind. I am glad I read the series once, but don't have much desire to return. The Attolia series by Margaret Whalen Turner stands out among the rest. Turner's characters and stories combine wit, adventure, heroic sacrifice, intensity of emotion and devotion, in a civilizational milieu of political and social subtlety conceived from Turner's insightful understanding of ancient history and literature.

I am partial to epics, and count the Iliad, Beowulf, and War and Peace among my favorites.

Being a teacher, how have you approached the discussion of literature with your students? What is the best way, in your experience, to discuss a novel?

It’s important to say upfront that I don’t teach literature. I lead discussions on books, some of which are stories. We generally discuss literature as wholes, having just one (e.g. Emma) or two (e.g. War and Peace) sessions on a book before moving on. This is not the best way to discuss a novel. One of the reasons I am enjoying the Tolkien podcast I am doing is because we spend a half an hour on each chapter!

In a Great Books program, a general temptation is to seek out philosophical claims in a story, and turn the discussion into a philosophy session. I try to focus on the insight authors give us into their characters and, even more, how dramatic parts of the story should move us. In Milton’s Paradise Lost, for example, I like to discuss Adam’s astonishment at Eve, and why he is vulnerable to her, not so that we can judge Milton’s theology, but so that we can compare it with our experiences of romantic relationships.

Above all, I hope that discussions will reveal important details (or significant omissions) that will help them learn to read great authors more carefully. For example, in the story of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 19-20), I like to read 19:17, “Then Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they took their stand at the foot of the mountain,” and ask, “What is it like for them to meet God? How are they prepared for this?” I hope students will come to see that the various details are carefully chosen to suggest the current and hoped for relationship between God and Israel.

Do you like poetry? If so, who are your favorite poets? In your experience, is poetry best read out loud or silently, or is it equally beautiful either way?

The ancient epics and plays are all poetic in form, and I like that. Shakespeare’s dramas as well. I love reading passages out loud as much as I can. Hearing them performed is a great experience (like Benjamin Bagby’s performance of Beowulf). I want to take time to learn to pronounce everything correctly, in original languages when I can. Tolkien has some great heroic poetry. I have never developed a strong taste for contemporary lyric poetry, but I enjoy reading it with others, or hearing it read by those who love it. I want to hear the music in poetry, and I don’t like spending too much time unveiling works that might not have determinate meaning.

Have you experienced a life changing book? One that you couldn't put down and which stayed with you long after you finished reading it?

Besides Tolkien, War and Peace stands out among my greatest reading experiences. Did it change my life? Probably not, though it did make me very eager to get married and have a family. I’m surprised to say that Don Quixote is a book I keep going back to and learning more from all the time. I have always found it funny but frustrating; I have often wondered whether Cervantes’ aim was to drive his readers crazy guessing at his meaning. But I have gained so many insights from it, and am looking forward to reading it again.

What would you tell adults who are reluctant to read? Can you name 5 books you think would be a good place to start a habit of reading as an adult?

If you didn’t get the reading bug when you were younger, it will probably be difficult when you first start. So you will want to begin with a commitment to read regularly, a chapter or two a day. It should get easier after a while.

You might want to begin with audiobooks. Good narrators are able to bring the words to life and help you to imagine more clearly the descriptions and interactions portrayed. You can learn from them to develop your own inner “reading voice”. They can also help you to understand vocabulary in context.

One difficulty facing new readers today is the atrophy of our imaginations. Good authors excel at arousing and focusing our imaginations. Take time when reading to complete the picture in your mind according to the words on the page. If you can, read aloud to others and practice dramatizing your voice according to character, situation, mood, to try to help them hear the excitement intended by the author.

I think it's good to start with classics rather than with stories that are dumbed down for beginners. They are classics because they appeal richly to a wide variety of audiences. I remember when I first read a “classic”, David Copperfield by Charles Dickens, I expected it to be boringly “high brow”. It turned out to be a really gripping soap opera. Also, don’t look down on reading classic children’s stories (especially if you have children that would enjoy having you read to them). They are often well-written, witty, charming, rich, and deep, without the garbage that many novels for adults contain. Winnie the Pooh, Anne of Green Gables, Shane are just some examples.

Other starters might include a good biography, autobiography, history, or historical novel, like Lincoln’s Virtues by William Lee Miller, John Adams by David McCullough, or Paul Johnson’s Modern Times. Short stories could be another good entry, like The Death of Ivan Ilyitch by Tolstoy. For something interesting, engaging, and hilarious, try Huck Finn or Don Quixote. Arnold Bennett’s Literary Taste: How to Form It, has a lot of excellent advice, though it is over a century old.

Finding reading friends is a great help. Not necessarily a reading club, but friends who are passionate about reading, and will share their enthusiasms with you. This has really helped me reignite my love of reading. I had found that 30 years as a Great Books professor had drained my energy for reading serious works of literature outside of our program. Providentially, I connected with Lisa Vandamme at Read With Me Salon. I began reading some of the books she really loves, such as Middlemarch and Victor Hugo’s Toilers of the Sea and Les Miserables, and shared with her some of my favorites, including the Lord of the Rings (which she didn’t like very much, but we are still friends), Beowulf, and King Lear. Through Lisa, I connected with Grace Steele, who spoke passionately about Tess of the D’Urbervilles and Torrents of Spring. Sometimes we met regularly, but what was more important was just being able to dash a note here and there about a dramatic passage, and knowing the other person cared.

That last sentence is quite true to my experience. Reading together with enthusiastic friends - even over text - is the best way to enjoy a book. I have had many idea exchanges with my far away children through the cyber airways sharing that enthusiasm even on an ordinary Thursday.

But, alas, all good things come to an end, and this concludes our interview. I loved all your ideas on Tolkien, and confessing myself NOT an avid fan or afficianado, I may take one more serious try at the Lord of the Rings. Thank you for sitting down to this interview, Andrew. I look forward to the next outdoor Eliot reading accompanied by pipe smoke and the clink of bourbon glasses. Cheers!

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